Curse

bigtime102 · Dec 28, 2009, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Buying in game stuff with real money = F2P model. This isnt what made guild wars sell 6 million copies. Whats worse is you cant get these items in game, they arent even a short cut to existing content they are seperate extra paid for content you cant get any way else but paying real money.

For the people saying its good bottom line business so is your mom, so why arent you pimping her on some street corner now for an extra buck?
Anet is playing with fire, there is such thing as eating your own tale, sure it tastes good but theres a price you pay for it. You might be able to get away with eating your own tail once you grow big and fat, but the point is youd never grow big and fat if you started eating your tale from the start.

Sure Guild Wars has grown big and fat enough to eat/pimp RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO itself into oblivion, but they better not think about this for Guild Wars 2, theres no excuse too, they will sell enough boxes, theres no reason to destroy the integrity of competition be it PVE or PVP in this game with a cash shop from the start, hell theres no excuse to do that to Guild Wars either.

Unfortunately Guild Wars will continue to get raped from now on in because theres no one to protect it. Its a shame, and a price we have to pay for mmo' type games, they will always get to them eventually and they will be taken advantage of and raped by the evil that is greed. Its inevitable, no reason why we cant fight back though, slow them down. Speak up, the same evil forces buzz'ing into the right people ear to convince them to destroy the game could also be good forces buzzing in their ear to keep the games integrity. No reason we have to give in. Just say no.

NO to FP2 Guild wars.

Kaleban · Dec 28, 2009, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot Narita

I disagree. I've already explained why.

This isn't a point of opinion its fact. Hence why you're wrong. As is the rest of your posts.

Belaboring the issue with arguments over the validity of you or my opinion won't change the factual nature of my assertions. Hence, why you fail, and fail hard.

DRGN · Dec 28, 2009, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Something I would like to point out: makeovers and costumes were the very first cosmetic things. Character slots may be convenience, but they are not cosmetic. That aspect is very recent.

Second, how does the massive increase in numbers of them get written off as unimportant? If they go from having a single type of microtransaction available to the large number they have now, does that not give any reason at all to think they might apply the same idea in the future?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot Narita

I read what you posted. You think character slots are not microtransactions. You think GW's microtransactions are very recent.

I posted that I disagree with both those points, and gave my reasons.

Did you make some other points that I missed? Or that required me to quote your entire post?

I berated someone who turned to cheap insults, and dodged the points I raised, and attempted to write off everything I said by misquoting it as "LOLfail". It doesn't matter if they quote me at all, if they can counter my points.

It says a lot about YOU, that you couldn't see that. Especially given the rest of what I said (could it be that it's YOU who isn't bothering to read what others say?)

I don't know where you're getting the idea that Kaleban is the sole offender or even the instigator here. I read you and Kaleban sniping at each other, with "LOLFAIL". I also saw you make snide, unconstructive remarks like these:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot Narita

same old same old *yawn*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot Narita

Award for most outlandish prediction of the decade goes to... Kaleban. Also nominated for most hilarious.

So please don't point the finger at me for not bothering to read. I read things like that very thoroughly.

Quote:

My point is:
There have been microstransactions in GW for a long time.
Sure, there's a lot more available now... but they all have something in common: they are optional, they do not make ingame characters richer or more powerful, they do not affect the gameplay for people who don't buy them.

There is no evidence or precedent that suggests A-Net's future microtransactions will be any different. Nothing to suggest that they will start to affect gameplay, be required to progress etc, the way Kaleban suggests.

And I pointed out why I think they will avoid changing the type of things offered in microtransactions.

I don't believe they're going to do something like "buy this weapon or you can't advance the storyline lol". But are you saying there's no evidence that an MMO that sell costumes, cosmetics, etc. might also sell in-game equipment?

There's also the aspect that hasn't been touched on; possible neglect for the game's normal maintenance. The cosmetic things started coming in April of this year, and this year has not been particularly kind to the game.

As far as your reasoning:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot Narita

I know exactly what a precedent is, and I also know that there is no precedent in GW for the kind of fantasy world you have created.

Actually the precedents are: microstransactions have been here from the start - character slots, PvP unlock packs etc... and they're here to stay. The microstransactions offer convenience or cosmetics, but do not make your ingame characters richer or more powerful ingame.

What is the "etc." for? Character slots were the ONLY thing around from "the start", and that was over a year in. The unlock things came in very late 2007/early 2008. There wasn't anything else from the start. That argument is pretty shallow, and is built on your use of "etc." when there is nothing to be listed. Why would you do that? There IS no precedent for them selling cosmetic things like this.

Also, selling skills that players can use instead of having to play the game to unlock is purely cosmetic?

darkknightkain · Dec 28, 2009, 08:44 PM // 20:44

I don't understand why people flipped out only on the costumes, when they are like the LEAST useful among the ingame stuffs real world money can buy.

The concept real world money buying ingame stuffs is not even recent. It is part of the game and it has been there in GW almost since the beginning, long before the online store opened.

Buying GOTY instead of the normal prophecies gives you unlimited max-stat weapons. You can literally do 3~4 times more damage in Ascalon then your fellow gamers who don't have it. (For them? it will take them all the way until the southern shiverpeaks before they can receive drops that is even comparable with what you started with.)

Factions/Nightfall LE the worst offender. It gives you an "uncustomized" minipet that sells for hundreds of Ks + whole bunch of ectos in game... no different than directly using $20 real world money to buy ingame money. Those hundreds of Ks and ectos you bought with the LE is more than enough to deck your character out in his/her first farming gear and even pay the runners to get you there.

If anything, the current direction of selling makeovers/costumes (vanity-only but otherwise useless ingame contents) is like the best direction it can possibly go towards already.

Steps_Descending · Dec 28, 2009, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkknightkain

I don't understand why people flipped out only on the costumes, when they are like the LEAST useful among the ingame stuffs real world money can buy.

The problem isn't just that we pay for the least useful upgrade. It's also a lot because it's not avaliable IRL and that it's a visible advantage. For some reason, people think a short-term advantage (game of the year) that you can pay in a real-life store is better than something that has to be baught by creditcard.
Because a full game isn't microtransac and if they start using THEM, that obviously mean they can not not keep them in GW2! Costumes are the herald of a microtransac era for GuildWars!!!
The storage were saved that treatment simply because no one can see if you bought it, so there's no social presure to buy it too. Keyword being "no social pressure"

On my part, I don't care about micro as long as they offer no actual advantages and that they are few and far between. Or that they give more content to play!

Riot Narita · Dec 29, 2009, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

This isn't a point of opinion its fact. Hence why you're wrong. As is the rest of your posts.

Belaboring the issue with arguments over the validity of you or my opinion won't change the factual nature of my assertions. Hence, why you fail, and fail hard.

LOL. Ever the comedian.

That's all you've got isn't? "I am right, you are wrong".

You don't give explanations of what makes you right, or how what I've said is wrong. Because you can't.

Kaleban · Dec 29, 2009, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot Narita

LOL. Ever the comedian.

That's all you've got isn't? "I am right, you are wrong".

You don't give explanations of what makes you right, or how what I've said is wrong. Because you can't.

Well, if you bothered to read either ANY of my or DRGN's posts, you'd see we pretty much step by step deconstruct your arguments and why they're not valid.

I just don't like to /wallofcrit people with quote blocks.

But in the end, nothing is served by simply refuting one person's argument, which is why I've not bothered to argue with you over the validity of my posts. Suffice to say, a simple Google search on Guild Wars and its business model would turn up the evidence, but I doubt you or anyone would bother to read it, based on what I've seen so far. More than likely you'd quote one sippet wildly out of context and try to prolong the argument on logical fallacy and factual inconsistency.

But, if you MUST have some evidence, you simply need to look at when each NCSoft store item was introduced. Which of course would destroy your entire argument, since that was one of your main points of contention, the timing.

Oh well, life goes on, and you continue to be wrong.

[edit] As to the OT, micro(MACRO in this case)transactions set a precedent for future game design. As the playerbase is lazy and wants the greatest reward per unit time, so are the devs lazy and want the greatest profit per unit time.

Which means fluff or light content for maximum price, which is what the new model represents to a T. Which will encourage future content to be even "lighter" as its proven that the playerbase will still purchase it in sufficient numbers.

Basically, if you're ANet, you want the most money for the fewest man-hours. If you can get the same profit from a couple of guys working in their spare time on costumes that you would from a full team working on a full blown expansion, well I know what I would pick, from a purely business perspective.

If you endorse these types of transactions, you are condoning this development process and ensure that the quality of future content goes downhill. THAT is the issue and what is at stake, not jealousy or character uniqueness in GW1.

Riot Narita · Dec 29, 2009, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRGN

Something I would like to point out: makeovers and costumes were the very first cosmetic things. Character slots may be convenience, but they are not cosmetic. That aspect is very recent.

So?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRGN

Second, how does the massive increase in numbers of them get written off as unimportant?

It's unimportant because of the things that haven't changed: Gameplay remains unaffected whether you choose to buy or not. No matter how many you buy or don't buy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRGN

If they go from having a single type of microtransaction available to the large number they have now, does that not give any reason at all to think they might apply the same idea in the future?

Yes, there will surely be more. But I believe that they will continue to be convenience or cosmetic items that do not affect gameplay. Not things that will be "required" to play/progress. I've said why.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRGN

I don't know where you're getting the idea that Kaleban is the sole offender or even the instigator here. I read you and Kaleban sniping at each other, with "LOLFAIL". I also saw you make snide, unconstructive remarks like these:

I don't know where you're getting the idea that I think Kaleban is the sole offender. He's just the one that keeps coming back for more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRGN

I don't believe they're going to do something like "buy this weapon or you can't advance the storyline lol". But are you saying there's no evidence that an MMO that sell costumes, cosmetics, etc. might also sell in-game equipment?

It's a possibility. But in GW, I consider it extremely unlikely, I don't believe A-Net will take that road. I've already said why.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRGN

What is the "etc." for? Character slots were the ONLY thing around from "the start", and that was over a year in. The unlock things came in very late 2007/early 2008. There wasn't anything else from the start. That argument is pretty shallow, and is built on your use of "etc." when there is nothing to be listed. Why would you do that? There IS no precedent for them selling cosmetic things like this.

I use "etc", because I lump all microstransactions together. Unlike you, I make no distinction between microtransactions that offer convenience and ones that offer cosmetics.

Because neither of them affects gameplay. That makes them all the same type of microtransaction to me.

As far as I'm concerned, microtransactions arrived about a year after GW started, but must have been mooted well before that. And every microtransaction since then has followed the same pattern: your gameplay is unnafected if you don't buy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRGN

Also, selling skills that players can use instead of having to play the game to unlock is purely cosmetic?

No, it's purely convenience.

Kaleban · Dec 29, 2009, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot Narita

It's a possibility. But in GW, I consider it extremely unlikely, I don't believe A-Net will take that road. I've already said why.

Here:

http://www.plaync.com/us/nccoin/

Sure it will never happen. Just keep your head in the sand, and believe what you like. I'll take economic statistics and proven market factors that show how a company proceeds along a business model to make my predictions.

So why do you believe they won't take that road, when they've increased the number of available MACROtransactions in their store, and their parent publisher is moving to an extremely invasive P2P system?

I mean, you must have SOME logic to defend such a strange position, or is it just religious fervor and faith in ANet's beneficence? LOLFAIL

Riot Narita · Dec 29, 2009, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Which of course would destroy your entire argument, since that was one of your main points of contention, the timing.

First you make up a story that I think the number of microtransactions will remain exactly the same as GW1... and now this. One of my main points of contention is "the timing"?! LOL

You've got nothing, but you ARE the funniest.

Riot Narita · Dec 29, 2009, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Here:

http://www.plaync.com/us/nccoin/

Sure it will never happen. Just keep your head in the sand, and believe what you like.

What does that have to do with anything?
So what if NCcoins were used in GW for microtransactions?
What makes you think that would change the the type of microtransactions on offer? Even if NCcoins were introduced?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

I'll take economic statistics and proven market factors that show how a company proceeds along a business model to make my predictions.

You're always good for a laugh. TY.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

So why do you believe they won't take that road, when they've increased the number of available MACROtransactions in their store, and their parent publisher is moving to an extremely invasive P2P system?

I mean, you must have SOME logic to defend such a strange position, or is it just religious fervor and faith in ANet's beneficence? LOLFAIL

I've already explained previously. I could repeat it, but no point - since it seems you didn't bother to read it the first time.

Kaleban · Dec 29, 2009, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot Narita

What does that have to do with anything?
So what if NCcoins were used in GW for microtransactions?
What makes you think that would change the the type of microtransactions on offer? Even if NCcoins were introduced?

Let me see if I can lay this out for you, so you can better understand.

ANet releases GW, using a bi-annual release model. Model works for a while.

ANet/NCSoft later incorporate an in-game store, with a couple of items on offer.

ANet/NCSoft expand the offerings of the in-game store, to include such things as BMP (story content), and Cosmetic enhancements (makeovers and costumes)

NCSoft introduces NCCoins, which can be used currently in other games as a testing bed, to buy any manner of items, functional or otherwise.

ANet/NCSoft working on GW2.

So, what have we learned? ANet has changed their business model for one. No harm there, many companies do it when their original fails to meet revenue stream expectations. However, the events above show that both ANet AND NCSoft are capable and fully willing to expand the new model into more areas of games and multiple games themselves.

Now, are you going to sit back and HONESTLY claim that you believe ANet has no ideas or designs to expand the offerings in the future, not just GW1, but also Aion and GW2? Given that they've already done so of course?

If you can't see what's going on, then I don't know what else to tell you really. Everyone I know in GW sees it, several people here see it, even my non-gaming gf understood the issue immediately and literally LOL'd at the people who would defend such a thing, and a bit at me for arguing about it, to tell the truth hehe.

Suffice to say my worry is that ANet, and to some extent the entire gaming industry is moving towards a P2P business model, that is more intrusive with each iteration. The whole reason I signed on with GW in the first place was the lack of microtransactions and monthly fees, when they scrapped their original plan in favor of an in game store, I was hesitant but thought it wouldn't be a big deal.

As time has gone on, its become obvious that the in-game store will become more intrusive, whether it be advertising to sale of items beyond unlocks, and that's just with GW1. Its hard for me to honestly speculate how much the store and what it offers will be like in GW2, but just a simple extrapolation of the additions and time frame show that GW2 will be much more P2P then people are likely to believe.

Only time will tell though.

Riot Narita · Dec 29, 2009, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Let me see if I can lay this out for you, so you can better understand.

ANet releases GW, using a bi-annual release model. Model works for a while.

ANet/NCSoft later incorporate an in-game store, with a couple of items on offer.

ANet/NCSoft expand the offerings of the in-game store, to include such things as BMP (story content), and Cosmetic enhancements (makeovers and costumes)

NCSoft introduces NCCoins, which can be used currently in other games as a testing bed, to buy any manner of items, functional or otherwise.

ANet/NCSoft working on GW2.

So, what have we learned? ANet has changed their business model for one. No harm there, many companies do it when their original fails to meet revenue stream expectations. However, the events above show that both ANet AND NCSoft are capable and fully willing to expand the new model into more areas of games and multiple games themselves.

NOW you're making sense, and you made good points that I have no issue with. Excellent, thank you. And you made your points without any insults.

Where we differ though, is where we each think A-Net will go from here. You take a pessimistic view that future microtransactions will include things that will affect gameplay. I disagree. I think they will NOT affect gameplay and they will remain "optional".

While I accept it is a possibility...I do not believe it will ever happen - based on what we've seen so far, and because in my opinion A-Net would lose too many customers. And I think A-Net knows it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Now, are you going to sit back and HONESTLY claim that you believe ANet has no ideas or designs to expand the offerings in the future, not just GW1, but also Aion and GW2? Given that they've already done so of course?

No - I've said it before, I'm sure there WILL be more. But the way *I* think they will expand, is different to what you think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Suffice to say my worry is that ANet, and to some extent the entire gaming industry is moving towards a P2P business model, that is more intrusive with each iteration. The whole reason I signed on with GW in the first place was the lack of microtransactions and monthly fees, when they scrapped their original plan in favor of an in game store, I was hesitant but thought it wouldn't be a big deal.

A valid concern. But as I've said, I don't think you have anything to worry about, I believe A-Net will stick to microtransactions that do not affect your gameplay if you don't want them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Only time will tell though.

Indeed. If your worst fears actually WERE realised, I myself wouldn't be buying into GW2. But I just don't think that's going to happen and I've given my reasons for thinking that.

Kawil · Dec 29, 2009, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

NCSoft introduces NCCoins, which can be used currently in other games as a testing bed, to buy any manner of items, functional or otherwise.

So, what have we learned? ANet has changed their business model for one. No harm there, many companies do it when their original fails to meet revenue stream expectations. However, the events above show that both ANet AND NCSoft are capable and fully willing to expand the new model into more areas of games and multiple games themselves.

Now, are you going to sit back and HONESTLY claim that you believe ANet has no ideas or designs to expand the offerings in the future, not just GW1, but also Aion and GW2? Given that they've already done so of course?

I must say that in this I do agree. I posted earlier about people needing to show what they want with their wallet and now it appears that NC-Soft is indeed expanding micros. From the horse's mouth so to speak:

AION Micros

Now, while these are simply for cosmetic and convenience items I'm very much hoping that's all they are for....ever...in any of the games they put out.

I commend Kaleban again for his passion but again I must reiterate...we'll just have to wait and see all the while making A-Net/NCSoft are aware that game changing micros will not be tolerated. Again, my 2 coins...I could be wrong.

Daesu · Dec 29, 2009, 08:02 AM // 08:02

I think that they SHOULD add advantages in the game and sell them, BUT in the form of content that users can purchase.

For example, people who purchased GWEN got a lot of new PvE skills. Do these give an advantage in the game? Of course they do, but users have to obtain them by questing through the newly purchased content. That should be ok.

Test Me · Dec 29, 2009, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot Narita

A valid concern. But as I've said, I don't think you have anything to worry about, I believe A-Net will stick to microtransactions that do not affect your gameplay if you don't want them.

It's funny how people keep saying that when they already offer "macro"transactions for things that do affect one's gameplay.

And whatever we as a community worry about, ANet/NCSoft will go ahead with their plans, that's a given. The nostalgic era where GW was a clean one-time payment kind of game is gone.

Daesu · Dec 29, 2009, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

It's funny how people keep saying that when they already offer "macro"transactions for things that do affect one's gameplay.

I wish that were true, because that would mean that they have released new content that we can purchase and download from their online store. But that hasn't happened yet.

The silly costumes are not worth my money. I prefer to pay for something that affects game play as much as buying the GWEN expansion pack did. Making my game play more powerful would translate into even greater in-game advantage/wealth than just the stupid costumes which you cant even trade for gold or ectos.

Kaleban · Dec 29, 2009, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot Narita

A valid concern. But as I've said, I don't think you have anything to worry about, I believe A-Net will stick to microtransactions that do not affect your gameplay if you don't want them.

Not to nitpick a dead horse, but ANet already offers gameplay altering MACRO transactions.

Storage pane

Pet unlocks

BMP

Extra Character Slot

GOTY Upgrade

Skill Upgrade Packs

PvP Item Pack

All of these change how someone plays a game. All the unlocks act as a "speed boost" allowing players to bypass a lot of gameplay that would unlock in a certain timeframe the items or pets. BMP is extra gameplay content, the storage pane allows for not having to mule as much and such, and more character slots expand your gameplay options.

I will GUARANTEE right now that between now and GW2's release, we'll see more MACROtransactions, both cosmetic and gameplay centric, but my hope in the end is that ANet does not wholly give over to this business model for content in GW2, because that would absolutely mean I would not buy.

Mokeiro · Dec 29, 2009, 03:48 PM // 15:48

This is the reason i couldn't care less about the stupid grind titles some noob korean put into the game to hook us and keep us busy in the fake promises of exclusive GW2 content.

Well i don't give a fecal matter about GW2 as i fear the path nc$oft is choosing, i wont buy GW2 the 1st day as i did with GW, i'll wait and see the business model they choose with GW2.

If there's no monthly, neither microsuckations, then i will buy, if there's the tiniest of the tiny tiny bit of separation between the rich player and the poor player, i wont take that suckship.

So GW2 no microtransaction: I'll buy
GW2 with microtransaction: I'll give my money to terrorist.

So nc$$$oft, if you make GW2 with macrosuckations you are supporting terrorism.

Riot Narita · Dec 29, 2009, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

All of these change how someone plays a game. All the unlocks act as a "speed boost" allowing players to bypass a lot of gameplay that would unlock in a certain timeframe the items or pets

Those are things that I call "convenience"... they can get things quicker, but they can't get anything that changes the gameplay. People can unlock things for themselves, for free and the gameplay is no better or worse for them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

BMP is extra gameplay content,

Yes, you can view it like that. To me, it just adds a bit of lore, doesn't change the game.

There was a thread on here a while ago asking if people ever replayed the BMP missions. A few do, but the majority did it once, and after that... only when they wanted a weapon with a cool skin. In other words I see the BMP more as cosmetic (BMP weapon skins) and convenience (easy way to get weapons)... than something that affects gameplay.

It's a bit grey though even for me. Seems like a mini-expansion than a microtransaction... extra content that I'd simply expect people to have to pay for to unlock, like full campaigns. It didn't come in a box though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

the storage pane allows for not having to mule as much and such

Convenience... Gameplay is the same, whether you bought them or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

, and more character slots expand your gameplay options.

They let you create more characters before you need to delete one. Those characters have the same ingame options as any other, no matter how many you have.

They let you mule more stuff via your xunlai storage, without having to trade through an alt account. Again, I call that a convenience, gameplay is the same whether you have extra slots or not.